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Material from Jhelum was split to History of Jhelum on June 2009. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution.
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General Asif Nawaz, Chief of Army Staff, belongs to small village name Chakri in Jhelum City. He is even buried in Chakri.
The lists on this page are just advertisements. Can somebody from Jhelum please edit these lists and remove non notable enteries. --Webkami09:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have cleaned up the links section by personally visiting and removing nonsense, not working and advert websites. Please do not mess it up again. --Webkami16:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am the real one who is from Jhelum, if I can find out about you where are you in Jhelum, than I will remove you , you fucken asshole,. i wil find out who is running this page without any authentic knowledge , you must be from lowest cast in our language we says " Kammi" i can assure you, i will am working on it, i will smoke you out.
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
It makes logical sense, but the curretn Jhelum page needs to become Jhelum (disambiguation) in order to make this sensibly possible. I can see no objection to your being bold with that in any case and deploying {{otheruses}} with correct parameters on the pages it will then be referred to by. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The move to the disambiguation page is now done. By me. It could have been by you :) I have updated the requested moves page to ask an admin to simply finish the task I am unable to perform.
OK, the misunderstanding is "fixed". The move ought to be non controversial. I have moved the original Jhelum to Jhelum (disambiguation) in preparation for the necessary admin assistance to move Jhelum (city) to Jhelum over the redirect. Please would an admin assist with the final step? Had I been an admin I would have solved 100% of this myself. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The move of Jhelum to Jhelum (disambiguation) is a valid move whatever the outcome of the Jhelum (city) move. It has no effect on anything at all, and the pages that ity disambiguates to have the {{otheruses}} template deployed on them (with the exception of the Hong Kong one for now). It is perfectly acceptable to have the (disambiguation) pseudo-suffix in a disambig page name. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very confused move request.
1) The term Jhelum is ambiguous and requires disambiguation.
2) The request to move Jhelum (city) to Jhelum implies that the city is the primary topic, a claim which requires some evidence.
3) The statement that Articles on other cities of Pakistan are only with city name, So this article should also be only with city name is faulty logic. First, is there an actual naming convention specifically applicable to Pakistani cities or geography? I don't see any, and without a specific guide, the general Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) applies, and in particular, the section on disambiguation is applicable. Second, if you browse Category:Settlements in Pakistan and its subcategories, it is apparent that a variety of disambiguation schemes are in use for Pakistani settlements. Sometimes, "Pakistan" is appended with a comma. Sometimes the district or province name is appended with a comma. Sometimes "Pakistan" or the district or province name is appended as a parenthetical term. In a few cases, the type of settlement is used as the disambiguating term; e.g., Lehri (town), Pasni City, Bin Qasim Town, Saddar Town, Alizai (village), Aba Khel Village. I'm not suggesting that these articles couldn't be better named, but it is apparent that there is at present little consistency in naming conventions for Pakistani settlements with regards to forms for disambiguation (or at least there is no clear guidance).
4) Without any evidence supporting a claim that the city is the primary topic, the base name should remain as the disambiguation page. Jhelum (city) might perhaps be moved to use some other form for disambiguation.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
I see my removal of the reference was removed. I removed it because the reference is not to a reliable source. I challenge that alleged reference and will remove it once more. If you feel it is a reliable source then state your reasons here rather than simply reverting my actions. We work on consensus here, and I gave full reasons in my edit summary.
I note the newly added reference: Fauji Foundation Hospital, GT Road<ref>http://www.phonebook.com.pk/Dynamic/CompanyDetail.aspx?Comp_ID=64353&k=hospitals&l=jhelum&SearchType=kl</ref>. The thing is, that meets verifiability, but it does not meet notability. I am in the UK phone book. I am verifiable. I am not notable. It's far better than the other reference, but needs more work I fear. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Every thing is not available on internet, so what can i do for it? There are many things which i have added in this article but they are not available on internet, that information either i have read it in some book that is also not available on internet, or i have viewed it my self with my eyes and i m witness of that. thats what it is. Brainlara73 (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are two different questions here. First the items seen with your own eyes: However true and real they are, without citations they are original research, and cannot be added. While this sounds strange, this is an encyclopaedia, and must have citations from reliable sources. The fact that one sees a car crash, as a silly example, does not mean it can be entered here unless reliable sources report it. That means that it is notableandverifiable
The things "not on the internet" are much easier. You may cite books, newspapers, TV news bulletins, even newsletters (though newsletters may themselves not be sufficient). To help you there are templates. Look at {{cite book}}, {{cite news}} and {{cite journal}} as examples. If a book has an ISBN so much the better. As long as the item is a reliable source then it may, and should, be cited. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The page is comical. It is nothing more than a joke. Why are the terms like 'wild mountain tribes' used for the people?
Maj. Gen. Sharif Nasir Shaheed is also a notable person of khewra Distt Jhelm & this great man should also be included persons of distt jhelum because he did a lot of work in Afghan war & embrassed shahadat in C-130 crash on aug 17 1988.
Muhammad Suleman Khalid
caste Lilla Ansari —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.36.13.80 (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Salaam, I have watched the Wiki articles with interest for many years but never been an active poster due to the information being capable of use and abuse, however with the recent proliferation of articles I feel now is the time for me to also contribute. I was born in the city over 50 years ago and having been a regular visitor am fully aware of its history and background.
With reference to the article on Jhelum there is a paragraph depicting important landmarks sites with photographs uploaded by TALHA depicting the Melangi supermarket next to the Mangla dam and The Akram Shaeed library, I feel this is not relevant and free advertising. It is a small minor shop and not an important or historic landmark. I have tried to remove it but it has been uploaded again, it is cheap advertising, but it also litters the article with non relevant matters and stops valid contributions. I am annoyed that my contributions to the article were deleted without explanantion or discussion but posted elsewhere as the editors own work. If the editor feels they need help in writing articles in grammatically correct English I am perfectly willing to asisst but stealing other peoples work is not neccesary.
Thanks for your concern, and welcome to wikipedia. First i would like to explain the creation of new page Sport in Jhelum. This is not any type of stealing and here on wikipedia no one owns any article, its an encyclopedia where everyone is free to add. This was according to wikipedia's rule of Splitting the article. If any article size become too large it should be divided according to the rules. you can see procedure here.
Thank you Talha for your response. You know I have followed and appreciated your photography online since 2006/8. The article within which the photograph has been placed is about important landmarks around Jhelum. As nice as the photograph on its own may be I still cant understand how you justify that this one in particular contributes to the article. I am just trying to improve the article but as you feel so strongly about it I leave that decison to you. But ask that you consider the following posters coments in 2009 who also suggested that the whole article needs a good clean up -vis- The thing is, that meets verifiability, but it does not meet notability. I am in the UK phone book. I am verifiable. I am not notable. It needs more work I fear. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Swiftly moving on to another way I feel the article can be improved. That is to remove the excessive reliance an articles from The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Jhelum District 1907. Since 1982 I have had a hardback copy of this voluminous work and have studied it thouroughly. This was compiled over a century ago by the British and is not reflective of contemporary Jhelum yet the Wikipedia article does not counter this viewpoint leaving any reader with the belief that the situation is still very much the same.
Although you have placed it in the historical section of the article it is duplicated as it was written and by not providing the contemporary viewpoint it mis-informs, for example The Janjuas Rajputs and Jats, who now hold the Salt Range and its northern plateau respectively and secondly The Gakhars appear to represent an early wave of conquerors from the west, and who still inhabit a large tract in the east of the district; while the Awans, who now cluster in the western plain Very many people read through Wikipedia for research, information, travel etc. It is only fitting that a contemporary balanced view should be presented. This is 21st century Pakistan but tribal affinities and ignorance can very easily create offence. It is important to bear in mind that this volume was written by the British for the British who did not thouroughly understand the dynamics of communities which have changed. If one cant present the contemporary view then the historical view needs to be handled with accuracy and care.
Another example is the article is awaiting sensitive input and photographs of the cleanliness and bands of beggars in the city, as well as the infamous "Gagghur" maala. Should all of us really be presenting a tourist manual with effectively censure still in place?? --Ch ifzaal mehdi (talk) 13:35, 16 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ch ifzaal mehdi (talkcontribs) 11:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The clans mentioned here literally represent most of the written history of Jhelum. You want your "contemporary balanced views" to replace the actual history of the place? Baburnama describes Gakkhars and Janjuas fighting for the control of Jhelum. Later on, history tells that Rohtas Fort was constructed to keep both Hamayun out of India and to fight the local Gakkhars, who put up a fierce resistance against Sher Shah Suri. But of course you want that history to be left out because you're a typical kammi kamin whose ancestors were irrelevant to history.
Hazara (country), the Abisares of the Greeks;it forms the north-western district of the Peshawar division.It was conquered by Arjuna(Mahabharata,Sabha-Parva,Ch.27;JASD.(1852)p.234).But Dr. Stein identifies the kingdom of Abhisara with the tract of the lower and middle hills between the Vitasta(Jhelum) and Chadrabhaga(Chenab) including the state of Rajapuri(Rajauri) in Kasmira.[1][2][3]
References
^Encyclopaedia of ancient Indian geography By Subodh Kapoor-page-3
I want to discuss its spellings (of title) in english. It is spelled "Jhelum" of which "Jh" is to be pronunced as "Jh" in "Jhang" (an other city in Western Punjab) because "Jh" is pronounced "جه".
But "Jhelum" is always pronounced "Jehlam" that is " جيهلم" in Urdu and Punjabi (Shahmukhi), but usually written as "جهيلم" . My Pronunciation claim is proved in the articlte using International Phonetic Alphabets for English.
Then why in Pakistan it is written "Jhelum"?? It seems that some online software is used to return its spellings in english (software, i mean a software in which we insert any word in local language/script and it return converting in the other language i.e. English.
We can easily understand its pronunciation as being Punjabis but what about other non-Punjabis? They will just confuse in "Jh's" pronunciation in "Jhang" and "Jhelum".
Not only for making other non-Punjabis understand but also for our own Word's correction, we should effort and research on it.
Changed the most commonly spoken language to Potwari. The traditional dialect, or Majhi is in a few areas only, and usually by migrants from Gujrat etc. Potwari is by far the most commonly spoken language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.142.144 (talk) 10:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This diff shows my reversion of a great swathe of undocumented edits by a new user whose sole edits are in this article. I have assumed them to be in good faith and reverted them. There has been no attempt so far to discuss these or to leave edit summaries. I have no idea if these are valid edits or vandalism, it is simply their large number together with the volume of cited material that has been removed that alerted me. Content experts need to discuss this matter. FiddleFaddle09:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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It is a good article. (Brainlara73 18:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC))
I've re-assessed as a C. There are sections without sources, and some statements are tagged with "citation needed". DrKay (talk) 10:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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@نعم البدل:, This was not a fine revert at all without any edit summary when it was not the case of vandalism/obvious disruption by Frietjes. Now for the second time, you've not provided a simple explanation. Is it according to WP:CONSENSUS to add non-official languages in lead? I know they are in other cities articles too. I've concerns over this how it helps readers. @SheriffIsInTown: I would also like to ping you here for a response from you. Thanks. MŠLQr (talk) 18:00, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @MSLQr that there is no encyclopaedic need to include regional languages in the lead and infobox. Urdu, being the national language of Pakistan, is sufficient, and we can maintain a single language standard across all WP:PAKISTAN articles. There are many issues with including regional languages: firstly, it increases conflict, as everyone wishes to add their preferred regional language, and it causes clutter in the lead and infobox. Secondly, there is comparatively little literature available in regional languages as opposed to Urdu. Although many people can speak regional languages, not many are proficient in reading them; the purpose of written language is to be read, and if people cannot read a regional language, there is little point in including it. Moreover, reliable sources rarely exist in regional languages covering the article subjects. In the absence of such sources, it becomes unclear who would determine the spelling or pronunciation of names in a regional language, thus creating yet another point of conflict. If no reliable source covers a subject in a specific language, then there is no reason for Wikipedia to cover it either. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:18, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No it is not sufficient to just include Urdu – which only a small minority speak as their first languages. I don't know why you guys are bigoted against Punjabi, but it definitely needs to be on there @MSLQr @SheriffIsInTown considering the pronunciations are indeed different. I've discussed these matters before @SheriffIsInTown, and you have refused to answer back – even after I commented several times on Talk:Bahawalpur#IPA_Discusssion. The only reason why I caved there is because Bahawalpur is linguistically diverse, and I didn't really have the energy to debate the matter, but looking back now – I'll be starting a discussion there as well.
and we can maintain a single language standard across all WP:PAKISTAN articles. – There is no consensus for this whatsoever. If so, show me where this consensus was made. Like I said, I've had this discussion before, you never called for discussion at Bahawalpur, yet you haven't called one here, but funnily enough you did revert my edit (same goes for you @MSLQr).
There is nothing wrong with adding several languages. Other Wikipedia articles have it, so can Pakistani-related articles have it. Your notion about "maintaing a single language standard" seems to be a nationalistic, and honestly a bit too WP:GK. Lahore has multiple languages, so does Peshawar, so does Quetta. A lot of articles have multiple languages in the lede. See Dunkirk, Brussels, Barcelona, see Zurich which all have multiple languages.
I literally cannot understand where you've gotten this point that you can't add multiple languages or that it causes "clutter".
not many are proficient in reading them; the purpose of written language is to be read, and if people cannot read a regional language, there is little point in including it. – What an utterly ridiculous point to make, and honestly it's a bit offensive. نعم البدل (talk) 21:11, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Fact is, either call for an RFC or show me where there is a proper consensus for this, because I don't see one, nor is there any issues with adding several languages in the lede. Otherwise this is just gatekeeping. نعم البدل (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
thus creating yet another point of conflict. If no reliable source covers a subject in a specific language, then there is no reason for Wikipedia to cover it either. – That's not your argument though. I gave you references for the spelling at Bahawalpur and I saw no response to that? The fact is that is a separate debate, which can be discussed when an issue actually arises. There are many reliable sources. Jehlum has the same spelling in both Punjabi and Urdu, like I said before I will ping Punjabi linguists here and we discuss whether my edits were reasonable or accurate or not. نعم البدل (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As I explained in my previous comment, when it comes to Urdu, it is not about how many people speak a language; it is about the status of the language as the national language, how many people can read it, and whether the subject of the article has coverage in that language. Furthermore, you were unable to explain the significance or need for adding Punjabi or other regional languages. You have referred to examples from other articles, but those articles might have their own consensus, which cannot be broadly applied here. Can you explain what the Wikipedia policy is for adding anything to an article? Is it that any editor can add anything — in this case, you adding the spelling/IPA in Punjabi and calling it the correct spelling/IPA — while I can simply say that it is not correct? How would you validate that what you are introducing into the article is indeed correct? Are we supposed to take your word for it? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:49, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it is about the status of the language as the national language – Again no it is not, show me where it says that. Zurich has Alemannic German, which isn't an official language – it has no status. Same with Dunkirk which has West Flemish – no official status there. Official status does not determine the inclusion of languages in the lede of an article – it's a superficial point.
Cornwall literally has the Cornish pronunciation, even though it's a literal dead language that has no official status in England.
how many people can read it, and whether the subject of the article has coverage in that language – One, no it isn't – you're making this stuff up. Second of all 90 million people speak Punjabi in Pakistan – it is the most spoken language in the country, and Pakistan is country with the most Punjabi speakers by a mile. It is now mandated to be taught in every school in Punjab. There is a language authority that determines the regulation of the language as well as publication of Punjabi books. I have spent a good time reading Punjabi books. You can get a PhD in Punjabi from the University of Punjab. I've read thesis in Punjabi. When I said it's offensive to say that Punjabis are illiterate in Punjabi – believe me it is, which is what you've implied.
Can you explain what the Wikipedia policy is for adding anything to an article? What are you on about? I've asked you where it says that you can't add different languages to the lede of an article, because there is no consensus for that. There's nothing even against it.
you adding the spelling/IPA in Punjabi and calling it the correct spelling/IPA — while I can simply say that it is not correct? – Then prove why I'm wrong. You can't just say "oh the spelling is wrong, oh the pronunciation is wrong" (which by the way isn't), and then not proceed to say why it's wrong, and what is the right spelling or pronunciation. نعم البدل (talk) 22:03, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is not for me to prove you wrong; it is for you to prove yourself right. All else aside, please show me a reliable source in Punjabi using the spelling and pronunciation you intend to add. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:36, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is – you're saying it's wrong. You need to explain why it's wrong. This is textbook WP:PEDANTRY. You're not disputing the Urdu pronunciation, because you don't mind the Urdu IPA. The only reason why you're asking for a "reference" is because you don't want to keep the Punjabi pronunciation. نعم البدل (talk) 00:05, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown: You know what, here. As per Wiktionary, the inclusion of a term requires three good citations:
As for the pronunciation, if you have an Apple computer/laptop or an iPhone, enable Oxford Punjabi-English dictionary and search the term جہلم, it will give you the following IPA notation /jeː˦ləm/ (which is an alternative way of writing [d͡ʒéːˈlˑɐ̃m].
I am not asking for Urdu sources because I know there is widespread coverage of the subject in Urdu; simply Google ‘‘جہلم’’ and switch to the News tab. However, there is no such coverage in Punjabi. We are not certain whether the sources you are providing in Punjabi are reliable or not. Furthermore, you are asking for a consensus, but there is already a third opinion present here that is against your point of view. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:33, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I asked you to show me where it says you can't add multiple languages – you didn't, on the contrary I gave you examples.
I asked you to show me where there was a consensus to say that Pakistani articles would have Urdu IPA – you didn't, because there isn't one.
I asked you to call an RFC – you haven't.
You were being offensive – I overlooked it.
You asked for references – I gave you 4 reliable ones, with 3 direct quotes.
This is in addition to the discussion I had with you over at Bahawalpur where I gave you separate. Here is another reference from a renowned Pakistani Punjabi dictionary [6] as well as an online Punjabi dictionary by Patiala University with audio examples.[7]. That is 6 references now. All reliable, and live refs.
Debate finished and we can restore my edit? If not, then I cba putting up with your pedantics any longer and I'll be escalating this. نعم البدل (talk) 00:46, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Who is closing the discussion? The one who reverts edit without a proper edit summary, adds IPA without any edit summary and comments on the other editors, I don't know why you guys are bigoted against Punjabi,..., & Your notion about "maintaing a single language standard" seems to be a nationalistic doesn't make any sense when Urdu has the official language per country's constitution & the more important common sense is that it is understood by (Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Saraiki or Balochi-speaking) people from all the administrative regions of Pakistan which isn’t the case for these languages. So, my first question has been answered (there is no consensus to add regional non-official languages in lead on WP:PAK articles) but the above lengthy text by نعم البدل don't give a support to the Encyclopediac requirement. In short, clear objections are raised by Sheriff (an editor working on WP:PAK for over a decade by now);
Avoid clutter in lead
Unreliable without an RS-citation verifying all these
Conflict between different communities
(For the last I can provide diffs. of IPs and sock accounts)
Adding to these objections, I’ve;
What encyclopediac flavours it adds to articles for a viewership from outside country (when it has no official status at state/province level)?
On what grounds you are adding it? You are, only because it is spoken by majority of the population of city/district.?
If the above case is, would you also interested to add Punjabi, Pashto or Sindhi in the note at Pakistan article in the future?
It appears to me, نعم البدل and other sock accounts are prioritizing it by keeping Urdu at the second place see.1 & you left a hidden text (here) (maybe for RC patrollers) after reverting edit by Frietjes, which seems a POV edit and violates WP:HIDDEN per WP:BADHIDDENTEXTTelling others not to perform certain edits to a page, unless there is an existing guideline or policy against that edit.
You have added it over multiple articles, do you have sources for all of them? (& if not, why it’s not the case of an OR?)
If no enough sources, then consider a case in which a vandal IP or new user comes and change the alphabets (suppose use of abusive words). How can other WP admins and editors who have no expertise for these, will make a revert.
It causes disruption in text flow in the lead of article. For instance, if readers (non-Pakistani) from Pakistan article arrive at Lahore article, they see usage of Punjabi IPA. They would think, is it the official language in the province/city? Why the editors here are using Punjabi (non-English language) with country’s national language?
Also when there are same spellings in both Punjabi and Urdu. Why you still keep on adding Punjabi and create wikilinks to Punjabi lang. in lead?
This causes non-uniform standard over articles due to different languages in different regions. Some have Punjabi IPA, some have Saraiki, some Pashto, etc.
Sorry for barging in, @SheriffIsInTown @MSLQr, but I don't see what is the issue with having Punjabi IPA for the cities in Punjab? Although both Punjabi and Urdu are written using same script but their pronunciation is quite different. So IPA would be helpful in this regard. In my opinion SheriffIsInTown's arguments would hold merit had @نعم البدل been insisting for having IPA/Punjabi inserted in all Pakistani cities, which is definitely not the case here.
Moreover نعم البدل appears to have already provided enough WP:RS sources for the intended IPA spellings. I don't see how adding IPA for let say Bhera or Khanewal is going to raise regional conflicts, as SheriffIsInTown implied? Or is there someone disputing that Punjabi is the most spoken language in these cities? Sutyarashi (talk) 05:52, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Sutyarashi: No one is disputing over Punjabi language being spoken by majority of city's population. We are saying we should switch only to one non-English language that is Urdu at least over cities/districts/division articles. As I don't find any encyclopediac value for the addition of IPA of non-official and regional language with wikilinks before Urdu (see in lead of many articles). There also exists Punjabi Wikipedia. For English WP, one non-English lang.(which is official and understood in the whole country) is better than using local., I see Italian LTA often changes Saraiki to Punjabi. By the way, I was also considering the note to be used instead with braces in lead, just like at Taxila (but again why not switch from Punjabi to Urdu?). MŠLQr (talk) 06:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We are saying we should switch only to one non-English language that is Urdu at least over cities/districts/division articles Then START A RFC. You can't say "don't add the IPA of regional languages because we don't like it". Hold a wider discussion.
I don't find any encyclopediac value for the addition of IPA of non-official and regional language with wikilinks before Urdu (see in lead of many articles). Sorry, I'm confused I thought Wikipedia was meant for everyone, but they way you seem to be holding authority, I must be mistaken.
There also exists Punjabi Wikipedia – Then someone along will say "oh there's also Urdu Wikipedia, why the need for Urdu, why the need for IPA in any language.
is going to raise regional conflicts Sherrif has made so many ridiculous arguments, I'm sorry but it's absurd. Even after everything, his last point was that you can't verify the spelling and IPA – and I've given him an abundance of reliable references – so what's left?
The one who reverts edit without a proper edit summary, adds IPA without any edit summary and comments on the other editors – report me if you think that's incriminating. I'm not the one WP:Gatekeeping articles, and continuously changing goalposts.
my first question has been answered (there is no consensus to add regional non-official languages in lead on WP:PAK articles) but the above lengthy text by نعم البدل don't give a support to the Encyclopediac requirement – There doesn't need to be damn consensus to add IPA of regional languages. What part of that do you not understand.
Urdu has the official language per country's constitution Well thank God Wikipedia isn't based on the Pakistani constitution nor is it WP:CENSORED.
In short, clear objections are raised by Sheriff – Yeah, I can read – I don't need you to do his bidding for him, because I'm the one that's consistently gave everything he wanted, included reliable refs, only for you two to go "nah, don't like it".
while Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir have only Urdu – Gilgit Baltistan has a note of the spellings in the regional languages. Azad Kashmir doesn't have the IPA, because the pronunciation is the same in all languages – but if you'd like I'm more than happy to include the IPA there as well. نعم البدل (talk) 12:33, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@MSLQr: Again, your point makes no sense. Infoboxes are there to summarise the information about a particular topic – it isn't based on law or status, neither is the lede of an article. It just says what may be official. The language spoken in Mirpur, Azad Kashmir is Pothwari – which is quite clearly mentioned in the Infobox.
Again, please see non-uniform standard of IPAs – I don't understand your point.
I think it's better to start an RfC on WT:PAK – Better yet, let's speed things up, I'm involving an admin I'm going for a third opinion. I'm not spending the little time I have on Wikipedia arguing whether additional languages can be added to the lede of an article, something which has been the norm for a long time now. نعم البدل (talk) 19:28, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I added [8] the Punjabi IPA for the name 'Jhelum', as per how it's pronounced in Punjabi, which has been done previously on articles (Pakistani and non-Pakistani article alike). This has been reverted [9] by both @MSLQr and @SheriffIsInTown who believe that only the IPA of the national language, in this case Urdu, should be included.
Comment – For me (as the initiator of the RFC), this is an unproductive RFC – however I would like third opinions on this, as I don't understand the arguments against it. I've been on Wikipedia for several years now, and I've seen multiple languages in the lede and infoboxes of pretty much every article about a diverse / multilingual city. Examples being Dunkirk, Zurich, Cornwall etc. I have not see any consensus where it has been stated that only official languages can be included in the lede.
I have been given several arguments such as, 1. it causes clutter in the lead and infobox – I don't believe that's true. At most there are three languages on an article – here it's only two. Even if it did cause a clutter than it can be combined into a note. 2. people can speak regional languages, not many are proficient in reading them – This is not true, Punjabi is a literary language. There is no doubt about that. Punjabi is also the language that is most spoken in Pakistan (3x as India, and 4x if you combine the Punjabic dialects). It is represented in every domain in Pakistan unofficially, except that it is not an official language. It is the mother tongue of 90 million Pakistanis (120 million if you were to include the wider Punjabi dialcets). 3. reliable sources rarely exist in regional languages covering the article subjects – This is not true, I gave 6 reliable sources for the pronunciation and spelling of this name in Punjabi above, just for this city. I had a separate exchange at Talk:Bahawalpur. 4. Conflict between different communities – I have no idea how this can cause an issue.
While I completely understand the importance of a national language, it is still a secondary language. Punjabi is the mother tongue, and should be included. Again, I don't see why this is really an issue.
I would also like to point out that this is the Punjabi IPA, of a city in the Punjab, where the native tongue is and has always been Punjabi. نعم البدل (talk) 12:48, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - In addition to my arguments in Talk:Jhelum#Non-English IPA, I will like to further state that the purpose of including IPA on English Wikipedia should be to reflect the pronunciation in the language from which the English name was derived—not necessarily the language currently spoken in that city. In the case of many Pakistani place names, particularly major urban centres, the English spelling and pronunciation were established during the colonial period, when Urdu functioned as the lingua franca of administration, literature, and education. As a result, English transliterations typically reflected Urdu spellings and pronunciations, not those of regional languages. Take the example of Lahore: the English name clearly derives from the Urdu spelling ‘‘لاہور’’, not the Punjabi ‘‘لہور’’. This was largely due to the abundance of Urdu literature and documentation available on Lahore, compared to Punjabi sources. While Punjabi and Urdu share the same pronunciation for many place names, there are numerous examples—especially from other provinces—where it is evident that the English names of locations were based on Urdu spellings and pronunciations rather than the local spoken language. Including IPA from a language that did not influence the English name may inadvertently mislead readers about the name’s linguistic origin.
I've been contemplating for the last 10 minutes whether it's even worth replying to such a comment. Like, you couldn't have made a worse argument if you tried. Every point in this comment is wrong, just wrong. This is your argument for as to why the Punjabi IPA shouldn't be included on an article about a Punjabi city. نعم البدل (talk) 20:44, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You may consider my arguments wrong or even ridiculous, just as I might feel the same about yours—but that approach gets us nowhere. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and ultimately, it is up to the community to decide. There is no need to respond to every one of my comments if you do not have a substantive argument to counter mine. Simply dismissing points as “wrong” or calling them the “worst argument” does not contribute to a productive discussion. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:16, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown: This is an RFC, you should have mentioned your previous points here as well. You didn't. Instead you made an argument that is pretty much hold no relevance to this.
purpose of including IPA on English Wikipedia should be to reflect the pronunciation in the language from which the English name was derived – Where does this come from? Can I get an example of where this is found on Wikipedia?
As a result, English transliterations typically reflected Urdu spellings and pronunciations, not those of regional languages. Take the example of Lahore: the English name clearly derives from the Urdu spelling ‘‘لاہور’’, not the Punjabi ‘‘لہور’’. – You don't know that. It could be a direct borrowing from Punjabi 'lahaur' or Urdu 'lāhaur'. Not only that, ɔ and o are often assimilated in Punjabi, so 'lahaur' is often pronounced as la(h)ōr, so it's absolutely possible that Lahore comes directly from Punjabi, or even from Urdu and both Punjabi, after all it isn't black and white. In addition to that, you have cities like Allahabad – which is known as ilāhābād in Urdu, (now) prayāgarāj in Hindi. The name Allahabad comes from the Persian Allāh-ābād. You have Delhi, a name borrowed from Urdu [Dihlī], but remind me what the local variant is? Dillī. You have Liege, which is borrowed from French, yet the lede of the article includes the following languages: French, Walloon, Dutch, German. You have Cologne a German city, but it's English name derives from French. It also includes the Kölsch IPA, which is a Colognian dialect and doesn't have any official status. I gave you the example of Cornwall, which is a name of Celtic origin, but natively derived – yet the article contains the Cornish IPA; Cornish is a dead language. Countless examples.
So saying "purpose of including IPA on English Wikipedia should be to reflect the pronunciation in the language from which the English name was derived" is just baseless. نعم البدل (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
where it is evident that the English names of locations were based on Urdu spellings and pronunciations rather than the local spoken language – Suppose this is true, so what? Why does that determine what language goes in the lede or infobox of an article? Can you give an actual example of this from articles that you haven't already edited on?
Including IPA from a language that did not influence the English name may inadvertently mislead readers about the name’s linguistic origin – 1. It doesn't, 2. no one thinks "oh IPA, that must mean that Jerusalem is borrowed from the Arabic al-quds". These are all superficial points. نعم البدل (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
(Summoned by bot) User above: First off, I wish I could refer to you more precisely, but I can neither replicate your script on my keyboard, nor copy and paste your name without creating an odd formatting bug in the wikicode for some reason; please read WP:LATINPLEASE and consider reformatting your signature (perhaps by adding 'niʻmu lbadal' in parenthesis as you do on your user page?), because this issue is likely to create headaches for other users, and those issues could unfavourably colour the perspective on your editorial arguments. Those arguments should be considered on their merits alone, but the issue of using the non-latin script in your username has an unfortunate overlap with the nexus of this discussion in a way that is likely to do you a disservice, I fear. That little prelude done, here is what I was going to say before I got diverted by the technical issues with your user name: I will need to take some time to delve deeper into the specifics of the policy question here, because it is a very nuanced one, worth some contemplation and consideration of the whole context of the article. However, SheriffIsInTown is absolutely right about one thing: your initial response to his !vote was needlessly combative in tone and completely unproductive in terms of resolving the afore-mentioned editorial issues. Pointed criticism of the sort you have used elsewhere in this discussion is fair play, but responding to the first contrary opinion in this RfC with "You are wrong, wrong, wrong--so very wrong that I almost didn't respond to your idiotic wrongness, only how else would you know how wrong you are?" is not a compelling argument for disentangling the issues here, and could only serve to turn up the heat. Except for the fact that Sheriff declined the opportunity to get bent out of shape over the comment and responded in a very reserved fashion that speaks well of their experience, perspective, and apparent approach to discussion on this project. So, again, please bear with me while I take some time to look over the substantive dispute here (and expect other responses to be on the slower side here, given the interplay between multiple policy/MoS considerations, the history and idiosyncrasies of the related topic areas, and the language factor), and in the meantime, please try to avoid spiking the heat of the discussion with commentary that leans into tautological value assessments, rather than more helpful and particularized arguments. SnowRise let's rap03:38, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks your reply. Normally I don't get issues with my username, but yes I'll try to remember to sign off my replies with a latin name.
your initial response to his !vote was needlessly combative in tone and completely unproductive in terms of resolving the afore-mentioned editorial issues. Pointed criticism of the sort you have used elsewhere in this discussion is fair play – Yes that's fair, I was expecting to called out for this. It was more of a frustration because I felt a lack of discourse from his side (not just here but also at Talk:Bahawalpur). I was expecting a more strong argument from an experience editor in this RFC - for me as stated, the argument has no relevance to the RFC, and I'm not shy at pointing that out. nemul-badal (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2025 (UTC) ()[reply]
I believe my argument is relevant to the RfC, which is why I made that comment and provided a link to my earlier arguments—since I prefer not to repeat myself unnecessarily. I do not think we can apply examples from other location articles here, because every location is distinct: the coverage in reliable sources is distinct, and the coverage relating to specific languages is also distinct. So we cannot say that if Cologne uses one language script, then we can use another language script in a different article. Each case must be considered individually, based on the specific linguistic and sourcing context of that location. Regarding your argument about Lahore, I would like to offer some examples that clearly demonstrate how the article titles on English Wikipedia are based on transliterations from Urdu, rather than regional languages. One example is Peshawar: the English title is derived from Urdu (Urdu: پشاور[pɪˈʃɑːʋər]ⓘ). If it were taken from Pashto (Pashto: پېښور[peˈχəwər]ⓘ), the article title would have been Pekhawar, not Peshawar. Another example is from Sindh province—Larkana, a majority Sindhi-speaking city. Yet the English Wikipedia title comes from the national language, Urdu, and not from Sindhi. If it were based on Sindhi, the title would be Larkano, not Larkana. My point is that we use scripts and IPA not to show how names are pronounced in different local languages, but to help readers pronounce the English title correctly. That purpose is best served by using the Urdu script and IPA, since most English transliterations of Pakistani location names are derived from Urdu. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:42, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not spiralling into an argument about semantics or etymologies. You're dwelling into WP:OR with that anyways.
My point is that we use scripts and IPA not to show how names are pronounced in different local languages, but to help readers pronounce the English title correctly – What? Again what are you basing this off? How many times do I need to ask? Where is this all coming from? The English always has a separate IPA, just because it wasn't included here doesn't the English doesn't have a separate IPA transcription. Is this what you don't seem to understand, that the English IPA is separate which would be /ˈdʒeɪ ləm/, wholly different to the Urdu and Punjabi?
Not only that but in this case, the Punjabi IPA would be closer to the English pronunciation than the Urdu IPA anyways (!)
Take a look at the note on Jerusalem. It includes the English IPA, Hebrew IPA, Arabic IPA, and the Ancient Greek and Armenian spelling. You're making the wrong points – Even if you're under the assumption that the English pronunciation and Urdu pronunciation are always the same, which would make you believe the transcriptions are the same, you'd still be wrong. Even if you were right, it still wouldn't explain why the Punjabi IPA can't be included. nemulbadal (talk) 00:31, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support. If a regional language, and especially the predominant language, has reliably sourced IPA pronunciations there is plainly encyclopaedic value in including them. I do not think the article was overly cluttered by the inclusion of a single additional pronunciation (two pronunciations seems pretty pedestrian for a non-English language place name), though if it were it would be an argument for relegating both to a footnote. There's no reason I can see in MOS:PRON for excluding a language because it either has no official status or is not the basis for the English pronunciation, and if a secondary goal is to 'avoid conflict' between national or sub-national groups it would make more sense to me to lean toward inclusion of regional language pronunciations. Chaste Krassley (talk) 04:32, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Here and on other articles, I would strongly prefer the official language (Urdu) for non-English IPA rather than introducing the readers to the regional language(s) having no connection with the actual name of city, chosen on population figures [which in the case here is Punjabi] due to figures versus figures match in the population census. According to the 2023 Pakistani census; overall in Punjab province of country, Punjabi is dominantly spoken language with 67% of the total province population. Saraiki lags behind at around 21%. However, the distribution of both these languages varies across different cities within the same province. Cities including Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi and Gujranwala have dominant Punjabi-speaking population. In other cities of the Punjab province, including Bahawalpur, Multan, Muzaffargarh, Dera Ghazi Khan, Layyah, Bhakkar and Mianwali, Saraiki is spoken by majority of these cities population.[1] Inclusion of Punjabi and Saraiki in lead causes non-uniform standard over cities/districts/divsions articles of the same province. Therefore, I would prefer to restrict the non-English IPA only to Urdu to avoid the difference of IPAs in these articles of the same province. MŠLQr (talk) 12:01, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
having no connection with the actual name of city, chosen on population figures [which in the case here is Punjabi] due to figures versus figures match in the population census. – so let me get this straight. You linked the census 2023 - which says that 88% of the population in Jhelum district speak Punjabi as their mother tongue, and still Punjabi has no relevance to the city?
This is a joke right?
Punjabi is dominantly spoken language with 67% of the total province population. Saraiki lags behind at around 21% - So 88% (not including Hindko or Potwari) of the population of Punjab speak a Punjabi dialect?
Inclusion of Punjabi and Saraiki in lead causes non-uniform standard over cities/districts/divsions articles of the same province. - where has that happened? Any examples? You guys never even had a proper discussion at Bahawalpur - and I backed down because of Sherrif.
would prefer to restrict the non-English IPA only to Urdu to avoid the difference of IPAs in these articles of the same province. - Again clarify what differences you're referring to.
You've brought one reference, which was the Census and that only backfired against you. As it was stated earlier, there is nothing that stops Punjabi being included, and you as well as @SheriffIsInTown have failed to prove otherwise. نعم البدل (talk) 14:49, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We also need to keep in mind that different Punjabi dialects have distinct IPA notations and pronunciations, so we cannot apply the IPA for standard Punjabi uniformly across all Punjab-related pages. In this case, Potohari has slightly different IPA than standard Punjabi. I have already addressed the points you raised in my previous comments, and I do not wish to repeat myself simply because you keep repeating yourself. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:24, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Punjabi dialects have distinct IPA notations and pronunciations, so we cannot apply the IPA for standard Punjabi uniformly across all Punjab-related pages So? English IPA is varied - as per WP:PRON yet we have many solutions for that. Personally, I use the local pronunciation. If the major language of a city in say AJK is Pothwari, then I'll be including Potwari not Punjabi. The only exception would be Punjabi-majority regions of AJK.
This is a valid concern, but nothing that a discussion can't resolve. And before you mention, Punjabi, Saraiki and Potwari and other Lahnda dialects are considered separate as per Wiki, linguistic scholars and culturally. There is no compromise on that. So no need to delve into this discussion. For linguistically diverse cities, separate discussions can be had. نعم البدل (talk) 15:53, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support - I believe نعم البدل has already explained their rationale for the IPA/script choices for each language in their respective majority cities in considerable detail, so there's no need for me to reiterate it. The only meaningful concern I see being raised here is regarding WP:RS for the IPA, for which نعم البدل has provided several sources above. Sutyarashi (talk) 10:56, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Anything that doesn't go against WP:RS. One that I provided here was a Oxford Punjabi dictionary, which isn't widely available except on Apple devices. Here is a screenshot (which hopefully doesn't cause an issue)Screenshot of the term جہلم - ਜਿਹਲਮ found in the Oxford Punjabi Dictionary on Apple Dictionary. Additionally, just as we don't scruntinise the IPA of every single name / spelling, It's not necessary to do that with Punjabi names, except when there's a dispute. Otherwise it's just WP:PEDANTRY. نعم البدل (talk) 15:59, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@نعم البدل You are once again citing a source that uses standard Punjabi instead of Potohari Punjabi. Jhelum does not speak standard Punjabi. No, you cannot standardise the names and spellings of all locations. For Seraiki-speaking areas, you will need sources in Seraiki Punjabi; for Potohari-speaking areas, you will need Potohari Punjabi sources; and for other Punjabi dialects, sources must reflect the respective dialects. Standard Punjabi cannot be used universally across all location articles in Punjab. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:34, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown: Realistically speaking, I know you're not here to compromise I could you refute every point you throw at me, but you'd just make up another superficial point and continue changing goalposts. You're being pedantic – clearly as day. I will say this as well, I was so close to taking you to admins for a number of other reasons, but instead I chose the RFC way. You've voiced your opinion, you're opposed - great, so this will be my last refutation to you personally in this thread.
Potohari Punjabi .. Seraiki Punjabi – When you specifically label these dialects 'Punjabi [dialect]', it only projects your mindset. For those who might not be aware surrounding the disputes around Punjabi dialects, Saraiki and Pothowari (along with Hindko) are considered stand-along languages that are highly mutually intelligible with Punjabi language – like how English and Scots are. This is not an opinion (or mine fwiw), this is back by linguistic scholars, they are considered separate languages as per the government, and culturally accepted as separate. The notion that they are just Punjabi sub-dialects is ethno-nationalistic.
Jhelum does not speak standard Punjabi – Thanks to MSLQr who brought the Census as a reference which stated that 88% of the population in Jhelum district identified speaking Punjabi as their mother tongue, would prove you wrong. I would say that is highly relevant here. The pronunciation of the term "Jhelum" in Punjabi isn't different to Pothwari anyways! I also suggested you read up on WP:PRON. Even if the local pronunciation was different, then that can be included rather than the 'Standard' pronunciation.
Jhelum does not speak standard Punjabi – Also Jhelum is intermediary between Majha and Pothwari, but mainly speak Majha, as indicated by the census. Regardless, it doesn't change anything.
sources must reflect the respective dialects – If disputed (and realistically by a third user), then yes – but it's not imperative. Bring me a reference that says the pronunciation of Jhelum is different to the local pronunciation.
Standard Punjabi cannot be used universally across all location articles in Punjab – Already tackled this point in one of my earlier points. نعم البدل (talk) 00:10, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please refer to Punjabi dialects and languages#List of dialects and varieties—you can see Potohari, Seraiki, and Hindko listed as varieties or dialects of Punjabi. The fact that 88% of respondents state they speak Punjabi does not necessarily mean they speak standard Punjabi (Majhi); they may be identifying their dialect—such as Potohari—as Punjabi, since it is considered one of its dialects. Check the distribution in the Pahari-Potohari article, which clearly lists Jhelum as one of the regions where that dialect is spoken. If you are adding something to the article, the responsibility lies with you to provide a reliable source—it is not the duty of other editors to disprove your claims. Potohari pronunciation [d͡ʒeː.ləm] is indeed different from Majhi pronunciation [d͡ʒèː.ləm], with tonal and syllabic variations. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:45, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Punjabi dialects and languages#List of dialects and varieties – Notice the word variety. This article discusses the Punjabi varieties as whole. They're Punjabic dialects, not dialects of Punjabi. That doesn't negate the fact that you believe these varieties to be subordinate to the Punjabi language which is not the case, which is why you emphatically labelled them as "Seraiki Punjabi" etc. That is Wikipedia:Nationalist editing.
Additionally, the dialects section on that article was added by Sutyarashi, who has voiced their opinion on this RFC.
clearly lists Jhelum as one of the regions where that dialect is spoken – Yeah because I said it was intermediary.
Potohari pronunciation [d͡ʒeː.ləm] is indeed different from Majhi pronunciation [d͡ʒèː.ləm], with tonal and syllabic variations Citation required for two things. 1. That that is the Pothwari pronunciation for the term 'Jhelum', and it is the local pronunciation. Let's see you pull through. نعم البدل (talk) 02:04, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
All I can see in that article is that Potohari, Seraiki, and Hindko are listed as dialects and varieties of Punjabi—are they not? It does not matter who wrote them. Also, Sutyarashi is entitled to their opinion; they based their vote on your ability to provide sources. However, none of the sources you provided include IPA for Potohari. Regardless of whether these are distinct languages or dialects, we cannot use standard Punjabi IPA in location articles where these other dialects or languages are spoken. Here is a source showing that Potohari is the local dialect/language for the Jhelum District—see the table on page 8. What I am trying to convey is that even if this RFC goes through, there are editors who have made their votes conditional on the availability of relevant sources, and the sources you are providing do not support the local dialect or language variety. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 03:31, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
All I can see in that article is that Potohari, Seraiki, and Hindko are listed as dialects and varieties of Punjabi – I'm not going into this debate. Ethno-nationalistic views aren't welcome here. These are considered separate varieties to Punjabi, not sub-dialects of Punjabi, like you're trying to portray it as, and you are aware of that.
Here is a source showing that Potohari is the local dialect/language for the Jhelum District – Yeah I know Pothwari is spoken in Jhelum – I said that earlier on, when I said that Jhelum is intermediary between Pothwari and Punjabi. If it makes you happy, since Jhelumis speak both Pothwari and Punjabi – I'm more than happy to add Punjabi, Pothwari, and Urdu IPAs on the article, which actually makes perfect sense.
there are editors who have made their votes conditional on the availability of relevant sources, and the sources you are providing do not support the local dialect or language variety – I brought WP:RSs, you just didn't like them and didn't challenge them either, and from what I'm sensing, you seem to be WP:Gatekeeping, and not just on this article, but on a lot of articles. I won't be putting up with it, following this RFC. نعم البدل (talk) 20:01, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going into this debate. Ethno-nationalistic views aren't welcome here. These are considered separate varieties to Punjabi, not sub-dialects of Punjabi, like you're trying to portray it as, and you are aware of that. These are not my personal views; I am simply referring you to an article that lists the dialects and varieties of Punjabi, including Potohari, Seraiki, and Hindko. I also stated that, regardless of their status, if a location speaks a certain variety or distinct language, we should include the IPA of that language, not of standard Punjabi. I said that earlier on, when I said that Jhelum is intermediary between Pothwari and Punjabi., I provided you with the source for Potohari. Do you have a source that states standard Punjabi, i.e. Majhi, is spoken in Jhelum, or one that explicitly states both Potohari and standard Punjabi are spoken there? I brought WP:RSs, you just didn't like them and didn't challenge them either, I definitely challenged them—read the thread again. I questioned their dubious status and also challenged the classification of them being in standard Punjabi instead of Potohari. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:40, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
we should include the IPA of that language, not of standard Punjabi – I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this at least twice here now, that it's not necessary to include 'Standard Punjabi' on every article about a Punjabi city, but like I said before, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Mirpur, Azad Kashmir, only has Potwari and Urdu, not Punjabi. The same can be done for Saraiki areas. For more diverse cities, we can include 3 or even more languages if need be – but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
we should include the IPA of that language, not of standard Punjabi – And do let me know where I haven't suggested that, or opposed that. I never said that Punjabi IPA has to be included in every Punjabi city, I said regional languages should be included. The regional language here is Punjabi, or say Potwari, now that you wish to indulge in another discussion.
I am simply referring you to an article that lists the dialects and varieties of Punjabi, including Potohari, Seraiki, and Hindko – as we say in Urdu کھل کے بولو, speak clearly, what is your point here?
Do you have a source that states standard Punjabi, i.e. Majhi, is spoken in Jhelum, or one that explicitly states both Potohari and standard Punjabi are spoken there? Yes, there are an abundance of sources. I'm surprised you're even disputing this. Jhelum is and has always been considered an intermediary region between Potwari and Majha. The Pahari-Pothwari article explicately states it: Pothwari extends southwards up to the Salt Range, with the city of Jhelum marking the border with Majha dialect.
I definitely challenged them—read the thread again Lol, that's not a challenge, that's a deflection – standard Punjabi instead of Potohari Punjabi. Jhelum does not speak standard Punjabi, It's an astonishing claim to make really. نعم البدل (talk) 21:08, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown please help me understand: is there any problem with including the name in the other variety then? Do you think the readers could benefit from the standard punjabi pronounciation merely as an approximation of the "real/authentic" pronounciations in the local day-to-day varieties? Jan R Müller (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Jan R Müller I don’t think so. If we want to rely on approximation, then why not just stick with Urdu? It is a national language, we have a wide variety of sources available in it, and it provides a sufficiently good approximation to standard Punjabi as well as its Potohari variety. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:48, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown: You likely could not find the Urdu IPA for every single Pakistani city either, if you tried, just as you couldn't find the IPA of every city in the world for any language. I would love to see your sources for the Urdu IPA of the word 'Jhelum', along with other name places in Pakistan. Yet we don't scrutinise every single transcription. If there is an issue, we discuss it and solve it through a consensus, not say "oh we shouldn't include regional languages because I don't believe you should do". نعم البدل (talk) 20:04, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you believe the Urdu IPA does not exist in the source and consider it incorrect, please challenge it and remove it. The onus is on the editor attempting to include it to provide accurate IPA with evidence. I never said anything like oh we shouldn't include regional languages because I don't believe you should do. I only raised the issues that could arise or that were concerning. I never said it should not be included simply because I believe so. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you believe the Urdu IPA does not exist in the source and consider it incorrect – I don't know if your just skimming over what I'm reading or purposefully trying to distort my words – but I never said it was incorrect, I said [y]ou likely could not find the Urdu IPA for every single Pakistani city either, if you tried. You original reason for my revert was never about the IPA being incorrect – which it wasn't anyways. You gave an offensive and nationalistic explanation as to why the Punjabi IPA shouldn't be included. The inclusion of regional language doesn't go against any Wikipedia policy, nor is there a consensus to say that you can only add languages with an official status. It was only then did you change goalposts and started saying that it would cause clutter. When you were told otherwise, you started asking for references – for the spelling, and for the IPA, which I provided. When that wasn't enough, you changed the goalposts to the issue of Punjabi varieties, which isn't even an issue. Now that there's been a solution to the Pothwari pronunciation, you're still trying to cover your back by going back to the original issue of 'verifying the IPA'. You're not here to compromise, that is borderline WP:NOTHERE. نعم البدل (talk) 20:39, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I never said those were your words—I simply gave you a suggestion: if you think the Urdu IPA is incorrect, challenge it and remove it. Not your words—my words, my suggestion to you. As for my initial objections, I couldn’t have written an essay in the edit summary. You can call them moving the goalposts, but if I think of a concern and want to raise it, I will. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:47, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support: There is no good reason to only include the official language. To prevent lead clutter, the lead sentence should only have Punjabi and the infobox should have both. KnowDeath (talk) 16:23, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Suppport I frequently come to WP to learn local names (ie. any pronounciation and spelling regularly used in daily life). In general, readers will seek out names for any number of reasons that often will have nothing to do with the official status of any language. Including the names in all relevant languages and dialects seems to be standard elsewhere: cf. Bautzen, Kazan, Brussels. When in doubt, I think editors should err on the side of inclusion, both to appease possible conflicts and because I personally find many names really useful (especially in a discrete note). Jan R Müller (talk) 19:27, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The redirect Jhelum(city) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 28 § Jhelum(city) until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 07:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
