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On 8 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Kissufim attack. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Massacre

I think the term massacre is more descriptive and accurate to what is described in sources. Should reverse the move. Andre🚐 19:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kissufim massacre → Kissufim attack – The word massacre in no way pops out of the sourcing here, nor is it obviously the most appropriate descriptive language for the event. By the accounts of the somewhat suspect collection of sources here, four security team members and eight soldiers were killed on the defenders' side (so twelve combatants) versus four other residents and six Thai workers (so ten non-combatants) - this gives us a scenario where we have slightly more combatant than non-combatant deaths, making "attack" a more natural description alongside the majoritarian language in sources. In no obviously true sense was this an unchecked slaughter of noncombatants; on the contrary, the combatants were roundly repulsed (no comprehensive numbers on the dead there either, but at least two mentioned in one source). Another alternative would be Battle of Kissufim, because the two-stage fight saw both resistance by the kibbutz security forces and then a battle lasting several hours with the IDF. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This WP article calls it slaughter and rampage, so the name seems appropriate. Alaexis_¿question? 17:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose renaming to Battle of Kissufim, mostly for consistency reasons because on English Wikipedia we call Deir Yassin the Deir Yassin massacre (while I have seen it referred to as the Battle of Deir Yassin by some other sources including the Hebrew Wikipedia… yes I know Deir Yassin had higher casualties). I also oppose recategorizing it as an attack or battle because The Times of Israel lists Kissufim under its list of massacres here [1], so it is being categorized as a massacre by a Wikipedia acknowledged reliable source.

I am not against merging this article into a larger article of Oct 7 massacres. This would be consistent with the Times of Israel source that I linked above. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose based on the coverage described above FortunateSons (talk) 10:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move to kissufim attack

The attack killed 12 soldiers and 10 civilians and there was extensive fighting. This is not Re’im or be’eri, where a large number of civilians were killed with intent. There was extensive fighting and clashes, and military bases captured. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's incorrect. the attack was on a civilian Kibbutz, not a military base, and civilians were killed there, with intent. The fact that troops arriving , later, to stop the massacre were also killed does not mitigate the massacre, Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Were the troops killed during the raid or after it? IIRC there is a military base at Kissufim, if I am wrong correct me on both though The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

what difference does it make when the troops were killed? or if there was a military base nearby with the same name? There were civilians intentionally killed at the kibbutz, that's a massacre. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support taking the massacre name out of the article. There are attacks on Gaza where 100 civilians have been killed, about which editors have said that "massacre" doesn't fit and would be POV. An attack such as this, which killed only two dozen people, mostly military officers, would never merit the name massacre if the sides had been changed. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 September 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change the wording of Hamas fighters to Hamas terrorists. 2600:1700:E39:9800:5058:26:B5BE:467E (talk) 02:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Bowler the Carmine | talk 17:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 April 2025

It has been proposed in this section that Kissufim massacre be renamed and moved to Kissufim attack.

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Kissufim massacre → Kissufim attack – WP:NCENPOV states that massacre should be used in titles if it is the "generally accepted word" used to refer to an event in scholarly sources, or if it's part of the WP:COMMONNAME. This is due to the POV connotations. It doesn't appear as that standard is satisfied right now nor was it satisfied at the last requested move. Specifically, since the last requested move, WP:ARBPIA5 happened and inconsistencies in article titles relating to the word "massacre" were a major part of that case. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:35, 24 April 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. >>> Extorc.talk 10:25, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 07:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom Iranian112 (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support, particularly from a standardising-perspective post ARBPIA5, thereby informally rescinding my old vote. FortunateSons (talk) 16:02, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose First, Wikipedia defines a massacre as: "an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless. It is generally used to describe a targeted killing of civilians en masse by an armed group or person."

This exactly describes what happened in Kissufim — there is no real dispute about that.

Additionally, multiple reliable sources in English and other languages refer to the event explicitly as a "massacre", and several non-English Wikipedias (such as German and Spanish) also use the term "massacre" in the title and description of the event. 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 Even in Persian, the event is referred to as a "massacre" (کشتار). کشتار کیسوفیم Eliezer1987 (talk) 04:47, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as per WP:COMMONNAME. Kissufim attack brings up 10k results 1 while Kissufim massacre brings up 75k results 2.

additionally, many sources refer to it as a massacre 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 including research institutions such as IPESE Someonefighter (talk) 16:37, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to Strong oppose after reviewing sources, fixing misinformation (specifically on the casualties), adding information and rewording to match sources. The previous votes are based on underreported civilian casualties and over reported IDF casualties. Someonefighter (talk) 07:07, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Someonefighter got banned for canvassing 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 17:39, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Abo Yemen: This requested move was also posted to Twitter by a pro-Israel account on April 28th.[2] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:52, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I- just saw the comments on that post and.. excuse me?? 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 04:37, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Boy am I glad my username didn't make it into the screenshot. But @Abo Yemen, all jokes aside and just in case, if something worse than the usual insults come up on wiki, WP:Oversight can be reached by email (in addition to the usual measures, which should be pretty effective in most normal circumstances). FortunateSons (talk) 07:28, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@FortunateSons I've contacted them before about some online harassment and stalking that I've received from editing, got some replies asking questions and stuff, but ultimately, I've never received any updates on the situation despite it still being ongoing by the same guy. I doubt that they're going to do anything, to be honest. Thankfully, no one in Yemen is harassing me, because if so, I might have to actually buy a gun 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:09, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's unfortunate, I'm sorry to hear that. But it's good that you haven't encountered any issues in real life. Trust and Safety or an email to ArbCom might work as well, if you haven't tried that yet? FortunateSons (talk) 08:16, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't yet. Ill wait for a new incident first before I do so. Thank you btw 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:31, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, best of luck FortunateSons (talk) 08:37, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Per nom and WP:COMMONNAME. I'd also argue that much of the article is about the Israeli counterattack meriting the attack connotation, with only a few sentences about the civilians wantonly killed. Of the 22 killed, eight were armed IDF soldiers and four were armed kibbutz security; the majority of the dead weren't even unarmed civilians. Jebiguess (talk) 22:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is that the number of dead per the sources we have or just a lack of content on the article? ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 15:44, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, it seems like the current title is the most common name, see the links by u:Someonefighter and also google search hits: 30 vs 180. Alaexis_¿question? 07:12, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per @Someonefighter, fair amount of sources refer to it as a massacre — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 17:18, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Skitash (talk) 13:53, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I doubt that this proposal is made in bad faith, however changing it to "attack" might imply a euphemistic approach to what's actually described in the article (I do need to mention that this gives me the same vibes as people using "sentiment" as a euphemism for racism on political infoboxes, but i digress) - However, a general media consensus would be helpful. I'm personally torn on the name change - Maybe change the name but dedicate a section to the civilian casualties, which could be called "Massacre"? From what I've seen in the discussion the section on civilian deaths seems to be really minimal, either due to a lack of sourcing or just not any input from editors regarding it.

⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 15:42, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]