Talk:Mario (franchise)

B-Class Review

I consider myself too involved to properly review it, so I'll leave that opportunity to someone more detached. Salvidrim! 23:27, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll take that as my cue, then. A-hem. Emmy Altava 08:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The Detached One ~ An Assessment

I'm going to be a bit subjective here by simple nature of the fact that there isn't anything I can truly go off of here with regards to expectations. At least within the realm of video games, no other series is so large (and/or milked) as Mario has been. So I'll be drawing from three articles: the Featured Article Final Fantasy (for its prominence and large size) and the Good Articles Metroid (for their shared publisher) and Dragon Quest (because a third title makes the list more poetic.)

To start with, I'm going to suggest the following. To the tune of The Whereabouts of Light. Oh, I'm dead serious about that last part. A/R has driven me insane.

Unassessed for months,

Nothing else compares,

So I've taken this chance, to begin review,

Currently at C,

Aspiring for GA,

I'm afraid I've got some bad news for you...

-

I'm maintaining C,

For the following:

Too many subheadings,

With too few details;

Sources appear off,

With a pinch of undue weight,

But nonetheless the length's above Start-class.

-

It's nothing personal, no,

But, you know.

Looking at the other articles~ (ar-ti-cles~)

-

Metroid is succinct,

As one might'nt think:

For more reasons than its

Shorter history,

Four easy sections, and

A brief list of titles,

(But here you should just link to that one list of them.)

-

Dragon Quest has more,

Both in games and lore,

Even with that fact, though,

It achieved GA,

Consider one reason,

Why that might be so:

It keeps the spin-offs listed in one place.

-

Honestly, I don't quite mind

(Not that much.)

But when it is,

Half of the whole page?

-

It's a concrete fact,

Someone will protest,

Having more subheadings,

Than you have of text,

GA or above,

Someone will soon give you hell,

It's better that you hear this news like this.~

-

(String solo... of assessment!)

-

Final Fantasy:

It beckons to thee,

Between all its titles,

And its tendency,

To be milked to heck

With tangential spinning-offs,

So I'd advise you study that one closely.

-

Overall it's fine

At C, where it is,

But to progress further,

Much more must be done:

Consider how the

Longest entry on the page,

Goes not to Donkey Kong but Hotel Mario.

Shorten other things,

But detail further games,

And soon you'll have the stuff of a Good Article.

-

And if you don't want to listen to my awesome song? Fine. tl;dr: Get rid of nearly all of the subsections and just give a few paragraphs to the plethora of spin-offs (e.g. everything that isn't Super Mario), put less emphasis on the Hudson titles and the CD-i game that isn't Hotel Mario, condense the 'comics' and 'television' sections a tad, lengthen the 'merchandise' section, and pimp out the 'impact' section as masterfully as you can. Again, look at Final Fantasy if it helps - odd as it is, that's probably the closest thing to Mario that the site has as a quality article. Emmy Altava 08:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Mario & Luigi series logo.

Could someone add the Mario & Luigi series logo just like the Paper Mario series logo above on the page? I'm not able to add simple images like that, so it would be greatly appreciated if anyone could do that. Thanks! Zacharyalejandro (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Protection?

Hey,

Was thinking that this page and the Super Mario page should get semi protection like the Nintendo and Legend of Zelda pages have. Anybody know how we can request it? -Peterjack1

Spliting Dr. Mario series

The latest game in the Dr. Mario series, Dr. Mario World, was released in 2019. However, this needs to splitting into the new article. Longplay Watcher (talk) 11:31, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

DK as a part of Mario franchise?

There's an issue raised at List of best-selling video game franchises that should probably also be addressed here. Namely there's been edits whether the Donkey Kong series is part of the Mario franchise, simply because the first DK game included Mario. That feels like OR unless its clear Nintendo or the media at large considers that to be the case.

To show an example of where recent media does NOT include DK as a Mario game, this IGN article from 2019 [1] talks about the Mario franchise -less Super Mario Run - had 620 million games sold at Nov 2019. Using the figures at the List of franchises table [2] near the same time, the total 700 M there includes the 60M that are coming from the DK franchise and ~15M from the first DK game + ports. That is, IGN does not appear to be considering DK as a Mario game. While its hard to find others that collaborate this, we probably should not be going too far off what IGN reports.

Yes, Donkey Kong needs to be mentioned in the franchise history, but it should not be taken as a part of the Mario franchise. --Masem (t) 23:41, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Basically why DK is counted as Mario is because that is where both started with the original arcade title. Also later titles such as donkey kong Jr. and 3 also keep the two together because of the fact is the same characters also 94. Now stopping there is fine but some people count the country games and the rest of the DK games because of certain characters (Kranky Kong because he is the original donkey kong) so that is why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.135.165.67 (talk • contribs)

So what i suggest is this take the sales for the original trilogy, donkey kong 94 and any others that fall into the traditional donkey kong area and count them as both DK and Mario games

So that would be ones such as mario vs. donkey kong series

Mario = Japanese franchise?

I'm not to stir up controversy or anything like that but the Mario franchise did originate in Japan. Wouldn't that mean that the franchise is technically Japanese? Leader Vladimir (talk) 23:10, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Some offshoot Mario series:

I’m just making a suggestion, but the Mario Bros. series is a thing and the Mario Artist series is also a thing. Hackecas001 (talk) 00:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

We already have an article for the Mario Artist games. However, this article is covering the games that have the most significance to the franchise as a whole (or have notable coverage), and this article is not merely listing every Mario ever made. Mario Artist is not as significant as the other games, so it's not listed here. And Mario Bros. is already mentioned in this article, so I don't understand what your question was there. ThomasO1989 (talk) 00:38, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

"Toad Town" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Toad Town has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 23 § Toad Town until a consensus is reached. Mia Mahey (talk) 19:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

"Mushroom Kingdom" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mushroom Kingdom has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 2 § Mushroom Kingdom until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 14:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

"Mushroom Kingdoom" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mushroom Kingdoom has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 2 § Mushroom Kingdoom until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

"List of cameos of the Mario series" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect List of cameos of the Mario series has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 2 § List of cameos of the Mario series until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

First game in Mario franchise (Donkey Kong vs Mario Bros)

As others have edited it, the first paragraph is wrong and should not stand. It says that the first game of the Mario series was Mario Bros, when it was actually Donkey Kong. Also, the sentences don't mesh well. It awkwardly states that Mario Bros. should be considered the first game even though Mario had actually appeared in other games before that one. Accordingly, I say that the opening should be changed to the revision I edited, which flows better and is more relevant to the article. Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

This isn't about the debut of Mario the character, it's the debut of the franchise, which is determined by branding. Mario Bros. is the first to be branded. Donkey Kong is the start of the Donkey Kong franchise. They are related to each other, but not the same. ThomasO1989 (talk) 20:52, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

That is a very weak argument. The franchise wasn't officially branded until Super Mario Bros. in 1985, and the Donkey Kong series wasn't branded as such until Donkey Kong Country came out in 1994. Not only that, but the arcade game Mario Bros wasn't even the first game named Mario Bros to come out that year--that belongs to the Game and Watch Mario Bros. The original Donkey Kong has been repeatedly referenced, given shout outs, and remade as part of the Mario franchise. The Mario vs Donkey Kong games are considered to be part of the Mario franchise, as is the Game Boy remake of Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong series locations and characters regularly appear in Mario games. It's inconsistent to say that Donkey Kong is the first game in the Donkey Kong series just because it has the same name yet also say Mario debuted in Donkey Kong despite being named Jumpman. You're trying to claim Donkey Kong isn't a Mario game while reaping the benefits of it being a Mario game. It's called the Mario series, for crying out loud, so it should follow that Mario's first appearance is the start of the series. The Super Mario Wiki, which records all information about the Mario series, outright states that Donkey Kong is the first game of the series. The sentences are being edited based on perspective and what editors want, rather than fact. To say that Donkey Kong isn't the first game in the Mario series and Mario Bros. is is to ignore video game history for your own benefit. Mk8mlyb (talk) 01:34, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

A franchise is defined by its branding. Inducting any other criteria amounts to personal interpretation. Swordofneutrality (talk) 15:27, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

What amounts to personal interpretation is deciding when the franchise is branded and applying inconsistent standards. If Donkey Kong isn't the first game of the Mario series, why is it still acceptable to say Mario debuted in Donkey Kong even though he was named Jumpman? Why is it acceptable to say Jumpman was actually Mario even though he wasn't branded as such yet claim Donkey Kong can't be the first Mario game because "branding"? By saying Mario Bros is the first game of the series, you're contradicting yourself. The criteria should be the history of the characters and gameplay. That's the standard applied to all other series, and it should apply here. Donkey Kong is widely regarded as having laid the foundation for all future Mario games, including Mario Bros and Super Mario Bros. Without Donkey Kong, there would be no Mario Bros. Put it short, the emphasis on branding is inconsistent and random here and produces more questions than answers. Mk8mlyb (talk) 19:47, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

The Mario franchise wasn't officially branded until Super Mario Bros. came out in 1985. The idea of a Mario game wasn't a thing until that game came out and made Mario the video game hero he is now. There could be a debate in and of itself as to whether the Donkey Kong series is a part of the Mario series, but I'll stick to the points that are relevant here. Donkey Kong series locations and characters regularly appear in the greater Mario series, especially the sports games and Mario Kart, and those games are not considered crossovers, which would be the case if the Donkey Kong series wasn't a part of Mario, but spinoff games. Is Luigi's Mansion not a Mario game just because it doesn't have Mario in the title, even though Mario appears in the game? There's also the WarioWare and Wario Land games, which are considered to be Mario games even though they're not named after him and he only makes minor appearances. Same with the Yoshi games. How is this consistent with the standards you want to apply to Donkey Kong? The Mario series is so vast and diverse, including many games, series, and even sub-franchises that applying standards of branding is arbitrary and confusing. The standards of branding applied here are arbitrary, inconsistent, and random, and look to being used to push a personal agenda based on a simplistic view that ignores history and facts. Yet when I'm trying to point this out, other people are saying, "no, this is what we're doing and we're doing it because we can". That's hardly helpful. The series started with the character Mario, and so it should naturally follow that the debut of Mario is the start of the series. Mk8mlyb (talk) 03:21, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm not weighing in on the matter, but in efforts to guide the discussion into more constructive directions: It may be more helpful if we start discussing in terms of what's commonly verified by reliable source coverage. On Wikipedia, that's going to be far more persuasive than any of these lengthy personal monologues on the matter. So far, I think the only source mentioned was a fan wiki, which isn't usable per WP:USERG. Sergecross73 msg me 15:11, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

This is pretty cut-and-dry as far as I'm concerned. Mario was a character in Donkey Kong. That doesn't make Donkey Kong a Mario game. Like ThomasO1989 said, a franchise is determined by its branding. Mario Bros. was the first game to use Mario as a brand, so it's the first Mario game despite not being the first game to feature the Mario character. From WP:VG/S-approved sources:

• Shacknews: "It may not entirely be common knowledge, but Super Mario Bros. was not the very first Mario-titled game. Mario finally got his name in the marquee in a 1983 arcade classic, Mario Bros."
• IGN: "The 1983 arcade game Mario Bros. was the first game to feature Mario as the title character"
• Eurogamer: "1983 was the year that Mario broke out from under the monkey's shadow, with the arrival in arcades of Mario Bros."

JOEBRO⁶⁴ 01:38, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

You're taking those quotes out of context. Shacknews also states: "Initially, audiences would refer to him as Jumpman, but we know today that this is where Mario got his start: the opening chapter in decades of creative and addictive platforming games." Pixelkin states: "The Mario franchise includes any media starring the Nintendo mascot Mario." Also, the Eurogamer article includes Donkey Kong at the beginning of Mario's history. And again, your logic that Donkey Kong not being a Mario game despite Mario being in the game is flawed. What about Luigi's Mansion and the Yoshi's Island games? Those aren't named after Mario, so does that mean they're not Mario games, even though he appears in them? Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:07, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

And it's worth pointing out that Mario wasn't just a character in Donkey Kong, he was the main protagonist. And he was branded as Jumpman, which many sources such as Stat Significant ("Mario first appeared in the arcade game Donkey Kong, under the name "Jumpman"") can attest to. It doesn't make sense that Mario appeared in Donkey Kong despite being branded as Jumpman but that Donkey Kong can't be the first Mario game because "branding", especially when Time states: "Donkey Kong was a reversal of fortune that ultimately launched a line of games in which Jumpman came into his own as Mario, joined by his brother Luigi." CBR states: "So, the likes of Mario Kart, Super Mario Bros., and even Mario Party will be praised as some of the greatest entries to the Mario franchise, but without that first Donkey Kong game, the brand itself, and a whole genre, wouldn't have been created." Invisible Culture states: "Beginning with Donkey Kong (1981), in which Mario’s name was simply “Jumpman,” the Mario franchise has been defined by the jump—jumping from platform to platform (hence the name of the genre) and on top of the enemies." It's also worth noting that the arcade Mario Bros wasn't even the first game named "Mario Bros" to release that year. The people talking about "branding" are applying arbitrary standards solely meant to exclude Donkey Kong from the Mario series, especially when considering Nintendo officially celebrates anniversaries for the Mario series based on 1985's Super Mario Bros, and CBR states: "Without Donkey Kong, there wouldn't be Super Mario Bros." Mk8mlyb (talk) 03:26, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

And now we have people arguing the Mario and DK franchises are separate from one another. I'm sure this could fill a whole section on the talk page by itself, but I'll reiterate some relevant points. Donkey Kong series locations and characters regularly appear in Mario games, and those games are not considered crossovers, but regular spin-offs, which implies that Nintendo treats the Donkey Kong games as a spin-off of the Mario games. Eurogamer states: "Spin-offs like the Yoshi and Donkey Kong series, as well as remakes and puzzle games, will be mentioned where relevant but for the most part it's the core Mario series we'll be running our calloused fingers over." The Yoshi and Wario games have a similar position to the Donkey Kong games and they are considered to be spin-offs, not separate franchises. And again, the arcade Mario Bros wasn't even the first game named Mario Bros to come out in 1983, so to say it's the first game in the series doesn't add up. I have provided sources that show Donkey Kong is accepted as part of the Mario series, so I suggest the article is revised to what I edited. Mk8mlyb (talk) 00:04, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Your entire argument is built upon improper synthesis and personal interpretation, not what reliable sources say. By your logic, Diddy Kong Racing would be the first Banjo-Kazooie game because it was Banjo's first appearance. Also, Donkey Kong and Mario are entirely separate franchises that happen to share a few characters. Donkey Kong, a featured article, makes this abundantly clear. I think it's telling that this discussion is largely just you talking to yourself and every single comment from another editor is a disagreement. Mario began as a franchise with Mario Bros. That's what sources say, so we reflect that. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:12, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Yet I have provided sources that directly state Donkey Kong is the first game in the Mario series (though I probably shouldn't have edited the article recklessly). It's not personal interpretation when most sources state that Donkey Kong is the first game. If a franchise is determined by branding, then so are characters. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of stating that the Mario character debuted in one game even though he wasn't branded as such but that Donkey Kong can't be the first Mario game because it wasn't branded that way. It's inconsistent and reeks of arbitrary logic. That's what amounts to personal interpretation. Most sources directly state that Banjo-Kazooie is its own series, while Nintendo counts the Donkey Kong sales both on its own and as a part of Mario (also, Kazooie debuted in Banjo-Kazooie, and that's when the series started). I would also argue that improper synthesis is being used by the people who brought up the sources to claim Mario Bros is the first game; those sources didn't say Mario Bros was the first game in the series, only that it was the first game with Mario in the title, while my sources directly state that Donkey Kong is the first game. In other words, the argument to defend Mario Bros itself relies on improper synthesis and personal interpretation, whereas the argument for Donkey Kong relies on what sources have directly stated. As the history of video games grows, we can't and shouldn't apply modern standards of what makes a franchise to when video games were new and in their early years. Mk8mlyb (talk) 19:21, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, Radio Times, which lists Donkey Kong as a mainline Mario game: "Mainline Mario games in release date order [...] Donkey Kong (1981 | Arcade, NES, ZX Spectrum, Game Boy Advance, Wii, Wii U, Nintendo 3DS, Switch)". Also, you go against Wikipedia policy by citing a Wikipedia article over a reliably sourced article. Mk8mlyb (talk) 22:55, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Almost every source you've provided is not listed as reliable at WP:VG/S. The only one that's probably reliable is Radio Times, and you quoted it out of context: the author clarifies that he included games that merely feature Mario, NOT just Mario franchise games. Donkey Kong is on there alongside Wrecking Crew, Vs. Tennis, Super Smash Bros., Tetris, and SSX, just to name a few. "No you" also isn't a very strong argument, and bludgeoning is unlikely to sway many editors. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 02:24, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

Now we're getting to the point where Time magazine isn't a reliable source? These sources show adequate knowledge and credibility on video games or are otherwise respected sources in general (Time). These are not blogs or fan wikis or tweets in which content is generated by users. Even then I have quoted from Shacknews to state my case. (For the record I also quoted Eurogamer calling the Donkey Kong series a spinoff.) After I double-checked the Radio Times article, no, I did not quote the article out of context. Specifically, the author states he created two lists, one for the mainline Mario games and one for Mario-featuring games ("We have two separate lists, one for the mainline entries and another that encompasses every game where Mario and his pals have shown up"), and Donkey Kong is directly included in the list for mainline Mario games, and for that matter Wrecking Crew is also as well. The reason I have posted these long comments is because I am trying to present a thorough case for Donkey Kong using every logical argument possible and I have provided reliable sources to prove my point and pointed out the flaws in your logic. I acknowledge I should not have edited the article recklessly without getting approval. But if you can't see the flaws in your argument and purity test sources just because they're not the "right" ones, then I don't know what to do. Mk8mlyb (talk) 06:52, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

It's important to note that Mario Bros wasn't intended as the beginning of the Mario series. It was intended to be a follow-up to Donkey Kong and was advertised as "that guy you played as in Donkey Kong and his brother are cleaning the sewers of New York". The idea of video games being a franchise was a novelty back then with almost zero exception until the Super Mario Bros games came out in the mid to late '80s. This edit right here doesn't explicitly endorse my stance, but it does state a point of mine, that Mario Bros is just the first game with "Mario" in the title, not the first Mario game. The Mario brand now celebrated includes characters such as Peach, Yoshi, Toad, and Bowser. After all, Luigi's Mansion and Yoshi's Island are considered Mario games even though by your standards, they're not branded as such, because their star characters are considered part of the Mario brand. Say what you will about Banjo, but he wasn't branded under a different name in Diddy Kong Racing before Banjo-Kazooie. The Mario series has a unique history and lore that dates back to the early days of video games, and the Donkey Kong, Yoshi and Wario series are subsets of that brand that focus on specific characters, as cited by the Eurogamer article. It's the job of Wikipedia to record that history, not rewrite it to conform to arbitrary standards that don't make sense. Mk8mlyb (talk) 23:12, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have another source, Yardbarker, which backs up my argument: "The franchise started in 1981 with Nintendo's arcade classic Donkey Kong, in which Mario, or Jumpman, served as the game's protagonist." Once again, this source directly states that Donkey Kong is the first game, instead of it being a conclusion implied from interpreting the source. If I find any more sources, I'll post them here. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:06, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: Another source, this one CBR, which backs up my argument: "The Mario franchise has been around for nearly 45 years, starting with Donkey Kong in arcades in 1981." Once again, this source directly states Donkey Kong to be the first game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:17, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Another reminder that you should probably cross check your sources with WP:VG/S and WP:RSP first. Presenting sources that aren't deemed reliable aren't going to be persuasive. Sergecross73 msg me 13:49, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

With all due respect, I have double-checked the sources, and Time magazine is deemed reliable, as is Shacknews and Eurogamer. I haven't seen anything that states that CBR, Invisible Culture and Radio Times are unreliable. One of the main WP:PILLARS is the principles and spirit matter more than the letter of guidelines and that policies are not carved in stone. We should make an exception in this scenario. Some of these sources may not be on a list, but they should be seen as reliable as they would under other circumstances. I'm for following procedure, but the job of Wikipedia is to record factual history, and obsessing over procedure at the expense of results, as the argument for Mario Bros relies on, would drag down that spirit. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:38, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Certain sources, such as CBR, have an active consensus against their use. If you wish to see them as usable on Wikipedia, you'd need to start up a new discussion on them to develop a consensus favoring its use.

It's basic failures like this that are contributing to the fact that you've been writing these monologues for coming up on 2 months now, and still have yet to persuade a single editor. I would think that this alone would spark some self-reflection on your approach. Sergecross73 msg me 12:16, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

I didn't know CBR had an active consensus against its use. I simply looked up the sources, and Time and Shacknews and Eurogamer were counted as reliable. If CBR doesn't count, then those sources, which clearly state my case, should be allowed. I'll try to see if Invisible Culture and Radio Times are allowed. Though I have to ask, why is CBR deemed unreliable? Mk8mlyb (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

WP:VG/S has both an explanation and a link(s) to the discussion(s) that lead to that consensus. Sergecross73 msg me 19:32, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

• Just because a character is included in a game doesn't make it a game in that character's "home" series. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is not a Sonic or Final Fantasy game just because Sonic and Cloud are present, for example. Same clear logic should apply here, just because Mario is present in DK doesn't automatically make it a Mario game, and most reliable sources do not seem to call it that either. Masem (t) 13:29, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

  You make it sound simple, but the problem is that your logic is arbitrary. If a franchise is determined by branding then so are characters. Mario was initially named Jumpman in Donkey Kong and branded as such. We shouldn't say Mario appeared in DK despite being branded as Jumpman but that Donkey Kong isn't the first Mario game because "branding". That is a form of personal interpretation. Most reliable sources do state Donkey Kong is a Mario game, though I realize I may have used some bad sources. There's also the fact that according to your logic, Luigi's Mansion wouldn't be a Mario game even though Mario appears in the game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one VG247, which backs up my argument: "From his humble beginnings in Donkey Kong to his latest release in Mario Maker, we attempt to map out the Mario Games Family Tree." This source directly includes Donkey Kong as part of the Mario series. Mk8mlyb (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one Forbes, which backs up my argument: "There are over 200 games featuring Mario and his fellow characters, including those headlined by Luigi, Donkey Kong, Yoshi or Captain Toad." Forbes articles that are written by staff are deemed reliable and this one is written by a senior contributor. Mk8mlyb (talk) 19:59, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

...please read WP:FORBESCON... Sergecross73 msg me 20:08, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Well, crap. Should have realized that. Forget that one. Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:17, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one GameSpot, which backs up my argument: "Every Mario Game On Nintendo Switch [...] Donkey Kong [..] These days, Mario is significantly more famous than his giant gorilla frenemy. But Donkey Kong gave Mario his big break." This source directly calls Donkey Kong a Mario game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:27, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one Game Revolution, which backs up my argument: "Another theory is that perhaps this Pauline isn’t the Pauline we saw in Donkey Kong, but that’s disproved in a later conversation with the mayor when she asks you to recall something she did “a long time ago,” with the answer being “captured by ape.” [...] As such, Pauline’s failure to recognize Mario is either indicative of Donkey Kong not being classed as part of the Mario canon — which wouldn’t make a great deal of sense, considering Pauline still remembering the events of the game — or of Jumpman and Mario now being considered two separate people." Basically states the point I've been trying to make. Not only does Pauline appear in the game, but the game and the source directly reference Donkey Kong, which states Donkey Kong as part of the Mario series. Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:43, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one Screen Rant, which backs up my argument: "All 14 Mario Games That Released Before Super Mario Bros. [...] Not counting ports or re-releases, there were fourteen games featuring Mario before Super Mario Bros. ever released. That's a pretty impressive number, considering Mario had only existed for a few years before 1985. His first appearance was in Donkey Kong in 1981, where he was called Jumpman. By the time Donkey Kong Jr. arrived the following year, Mario was named Mario, and went on to appear in Donkey Kong II that same year. Those three games were only the beginning, though. [...] Mario Bros. also received a Game and Watch version, as well as a "Special" re-release, but those aren't counting toward the fourteen original games that came out before Super Mario Bros. For those counting, though, that puts the tally up to six Mario video games so far." Screen Rant articles are generally considered reliable as long as they don't involve living persons. The source directly calls the games that feature Mario as Mario games and directly puts Donkey Kong at the beginning of the list. Mk8mlyb (talk) 21:03, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one Venture Beat, which backs up my argument: "Miyamoto is the brilliant mind behind many of Nintendo’s globally admired franchises. He created Mario when he salvaged a debacle involving the loss of the rights to the Popeye property by creating Donkey Kong, which debuted in 1981." This requires context, but it's clear the source is referring to the Mario franchise rather than just Mario the character. Do I need to post more sources? If I find any more, I'll post them here, but I wonder if this is more than enough. Mk8mlyb (talk) 00:00, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one Ars Technica, which backs up my argument: "Jeff Dunn: Donkey Kong Jr. [...] Here, Mario is the villain, having imprisoned Donkey Kong in an apparent act of revenge for Donkey Kong kidnapping Mario's girlfriend (Pauline, not Peach!) in the original game [...] it's one of the few true perspective shifts in the Mario canon." Donkey Kong Jr is the sequel to Donkey Kong and since the source establishes that the sequel to Donkey Kong, which shares canon with Donkey Kong, is part of the Mario canon, it should follow that Donkey Kong is part of the Mario canon. Mk8mlyb (talk) 01:08, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have provided another source, this one Kotaku, which backs up my argument: "The Japanese console mainstay has published dozens of platformers starring the overall-loving plumber since his original debut in 1981’s Donkey Kong, and we’re here to tell you which ones are the worst and best." Kotaku articles from 2023 to now are generally not reliable, but this is not a firm line and articles should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. After confirming with Conyo14, this specific article is reliable and is clearly referring to the Mario series when it talks about "dozens of platformers". Mk8mlyb (talk) 05:25, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Now that I have an understanding of the context, I'm not sure it can be used to prove this point. I thought this was going to be about a list or even a ranking. A single statement from Kotaku won't help. Also, there are some sources that go into the story of how the Mario Bros were named, thus hindering the ability to call a game where the playable character is named "Jumpman" the first in the Mario franchise: [3], [4], [5], [6]. That being said, I'm sure an RfC could be created to get more people involved and find more sources to prove a consensus. Conyo14 (talk) 06:51, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

The problem is that the argument for Mario Bros is based around claiming Mario debuted in Donkey Kong despite being named "Jumpman" but that Donkey Kong can't be the first Mario game because it doesn't have "Mario" in the title. It revolves around attempting to apply standards of branding without understanding how branding actually works, namely the advertising and what the company and official sources state, which results in personal interpretation. (For the record, History Channel is deemed unreliable.) And even if this specific source isn't good enough, I'm sure you've seen the many other sources, all of them WP:VG/S-approved that directly state my case. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:38, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Though the protagonist is unnamed in the first wave of Japanese arcade cabinets and named "Jumpman" in the English instructions, he is named Mario in the sales brochure. Swordofneutrality (talk) 11:34, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Even so, he was originally branded as "Jumpman" on the bumper of the original arcade game. Eurogamer states: "You know the prehistory: in the beginning was the jump, and the jump was the man [...] He was called Jumpman because he jumped, and he jumped because that was all there was to do [...] In his next arcade game, Jumpman acquired a proper name (Mario)..." The reason Super Smash Bros is not considered a Mario game is because it is a crossover in which Mario is not the main character. The sales brochure clearly puts Mario front and center in the game, which is indicative of a Mario game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 05:09, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have found another source, this one VG247, which backs up my argument: "Nintendo SPD [...] You can trace SPD's legacy in a line all the way back to the very first Mario game, Donkey Kong. [...] Mario titles created: Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr..." This source directly states that Donkey Kong is the first Mario game. I should note that from now on, I'm going to try and shorten my comments so people can follow my arguments better. I realize I need to have a better understanding of policy, but I have tried my best to present a good argument with reliable sources. Mk8mlyb (talk) 05:16, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have found another source, this one Den of Geek, which backs up my argument: "Big things have small beginnings. You can’t get much bigger than the Super Mario franchise, and you can’t get much smaller than the arcade that started it all, Donkey Kong." This source directly states Donkey Kong started the Mario series. Mk8mlyb (talk) 01:17, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have found another source, this one IGN, which backs up my argument: "But not every title in the Mario oeuvre has been a smash. The everyman hero has headlined a few clunkers and bizarre off-shoots since his debut in 1981 as Jumpman." This source directly lists Donkey Kong among the Mario games Mario has appeared in. Mk8mlyb (talk) 02:33, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Update: I have found another source, this one also IGN, which backs up my argument: "8 Mario Games Released On Non-Nintendo Platforms [...] Donkey Kong" This source directly calls Donkey Kong a Mario game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 03:26, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

The argument for Mario Bros makes more sense in regard to another game, Super Mario Bros. That was the game that launched the Mario brand, with its story and characters, and many sources, such as Polygon ("Mario first appeared as Jumpman in the arcade game Donkey Kong but gained icon status through Super Mario Bros") can attest to it being the game that made Mario a star. If you want to make the argument that Super Mario Bros is the first Mario game, you can surely do it. I wouldn't agree, given the evidence I've stacked here, but I would understand. But to abruptly declare Mario Bros the first Mario game just because it has Mario in the title goes against not only tradition, but everything we know about video game history. Mk8mlyb (talk) 04:12, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

• One very important thing you appear to be ignoring - there was a "Donkey Kong Jr." followed by "Donkey Kong 3" making it unequivocal that Nintendo consider this game the first in the Donkey Kong franchise, not the Mario franchise. Therefore in my eyes this is pretty cut and dry, and continuing to argue this against the quite obvious consensus otherwise will get you blocked for disruption. At this point it is a WP:DEADHORSE. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:59, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Just because there was a "Donkey Kong Jr" after the original doesn't mean they're not Mario games. I have sources that prove those are Mario games. It's you who is ignoring the many sources that I've listed. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Request for comment: what to indicate as the first game in Mario series

There is an active dispute on which game is the first entry in Nintendo's long-running Mario (franchise).

• Option A: Donkey Kong (First game featuring Mario (character))
• Option B: Mario Bros (First game with the series name branding)
• Option C: Super Mario Bros (First game of the mainline Super Mario series)

Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Poll

• Option A - per WP:VG/S approved sources (Shacknews, Time, Eurogamer, Radio Times, VG247, GameSpot, Game Revolution, VG247, IGN, Den of Geek) that state Donkey Kong to be a Mario game, and Donkey Kong releasing prior to Mario Bros. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option B as, per WP:VG/S sources, the Mario branding did not exist before Mario Bros.: Shacknews ("Super Mario Bros. was not the very first Mario-titled game. Mario finally got his name in the marquee in a 1983 arcade classic, Mario Bros."), IGN ("The 1983 arcade game Mario Bros. was the first game to feature Mario as the title character"), IGN again ("This was Luigi's debut game, and the first game to ever have "Mario" in its title"), Eurogamer ("1983 was the year that Mario broke out from under the monkey's shadow, with the arrival in arcades of Mario Bros."), Polygon ("Mario Bros., the first Mario game ever"), GamesRadar+ ("From the original Mario Bros arcade game that launched back in 1983"). Almost all of the sources Mk8mlyb provided are presented out of context and don't say that Donkey Kong is the first Mario game. (The only one does is Den of Geek) They just acknowledge that it was the Mario character's first appearance. First appearance =/= first game of the franchise. A franchise is determined by its branding. Mario didn't exist as a brand until Mario Bros. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:28, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option B Even though Mario's character made an appearance in Donkey Kong, he was identified as 'Jumpman' and not Mario. He became Mario once he had his own game. Jotform ^🥑GUACPOCALYPSE^🥑 17:52, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
• Option A Although the Mario name started with Mario Bros, most sources consider it part of the Mario franchise per the sources provided by Mk8mlyb. Also, Jumpman was given the name "Mario" before Mario Bros released in 1983, based on advertisements for a Donkey Kong Cereal from 1982 (Pauline calls the character Mario at the 1:08 mark). Elements of the Donkey Kong game and aesthetics are also repeatedly used in later clearly-Mario games, such as New Donk City in Odyssey or DK Spaceport in Mario Kart World. Unnamed anon (talk) 09:53, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

If you've been following the discussion, I have been creating a detailed argument for why Donkey Kong should be the first Mario game. This is the main version:

• It's the first game to feature Mario. Mario is the star of the Mario series, so it makes sense that his first game is the first game of the Mario series.
• The argument for Mario Bros relies on claiming that Mario debuted in Donkey Kong despite being branded as "Jumpman" but that Donkey Kong can't be the first Mario game because of "branding". That is arbitrary and random logic and a form of personal interpretation.
• Even if Donkey Kong was considered the first game of the Donkey Kong series, that doesn't stop it from being a Mario game. The Yoshi and Wario games and Luigi's Mansion are considered to be Mario games even though they share a similar relationship to the Mario series as the Donkey Kong series, being not named after Mario and differently branded from "mainline" Mario games. Not only that, but Donkey Kong series locations and characters regularly appear in Mario sports games, and they are not considered crossovers, but spin-offs.
• The arcade Mario Bros wasn't even the first game named Mario Bros to come out in 1983. That was the Game & Watch game of the same name.
• To say Super Mario Bros is the first game in the series is to ignore that the game wouldn't exist had it not been for Donkey Kong introducing the Mario character.
• Mario Bros was intended as a follow-up to Donkey Kong and advertised as "that guy you played as in Donkey Kong and his brother are cleaning the streets of New York".
• All of the sources (Shacknews, Time, Eurogamer, Pixelkin, Radio Times, VG247, GameSpot, Game Revolution, VG247, IGN, Den of Geek) that state Donkey Kong to be a Mario game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

In case you don't know, here are what the sources I have presented say:

• Shacknews: "Initially, audiences would refer to him as Jumpman, but we know today that this is where Mario got his start: the opening chapter in decades of creative and addictive platforming games."
• Time: "Donkey Kong was a reversal of fortune that ultimately launched a line of games in which Jumpman came into his own as Mario, joined by his brother Luigi."
• Eurogamer: "Spin-offs like the Yoshi and Donkey Kong series, as well as remakes and puzzle games, will be mentioned where relevant but for the most part it's the core Mario series we'll be running our calloused fingers over."
• Radio Times: "Mainline Mario games in release date order [...] Donkey Kong (1981 | Arcade, NES, ZX Spectrum, Game Boy Advance, Wii, Wii U, Nintendo 3DS, Switch) [...] Wrecking Crew (1984 | Arcade, NES, Game Boy Advance, Nintendo 3DS, Wii, Wii U, Switch)"
• VG247: "Nintendo SPD [...] You can trace SPD's legacy in a line all the way back to the very first Mario game, Donkey Kong. [...] Mario titles created: Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr..."
• GameSpot: "Every Mario Game On Nintendo Switch [...] Donkey Kong [..] These days, Mario is significantly more famous than his giant gorilla frenemy. But Donkey Kong gave Mario his big break."
• VG247: "From his humble beginnings in Donkey Kong to his latest release in Mario Maker, we attempt to map out the Mario Games Family Tree."
• IGN: "8 Mario Games Released On Non-Nintendo Platforms [...] Donkey Kong"

How exactly are these sources not stating my point? What exactly is being presented out of context? Almost every source refers to the Mario series when talking about Mario's games and includes Donkey Kong among those games. The only source that consistently states Mario Bros is the first game is IGN, and one of the sources used for Mario Bros (Shacknews) is presented out of context; it doesn't state that Mario Bros is the first game, just that it's the first game with "Mario" in the title. That's relying on improper synthesis. Mk8mlyb (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Please clarify what is the requested change here? It seems that all three are relevant to the overall history of the Mario franchise. So what edit is being disputed here? pickalittletalkalittle^🐤🐤🐤talk a lot pick a little more 16:23, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Mk8mlyb is in favor of specifying that the first game in the Mario franchise is Donkey Kong (1981 video game), but some editors disagree on the basis that a franchise is defined by its branding, meaning that either Mario Bros. or Super Mario Bros. is the first game. The article currently states that Mario Bros. is the first game. ThomasO1989 (talk) 16:42, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes, specifically, if you look at the infobox at the Mario (franchise) article, the dispute is what should be in the "origin"/"original work" field. Sergecross73 msg me 16:47, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Originally, until about one month ago, Donkey Kong was the accepted consensus for this issue, but TheJoebro64 edited it to say Mario Bros without seeking consensus. So technically, the requested change is to say that Mario Bros is the first game, while I want to return to the original consensus based on sources that classify Donkey Kong as a Mario game. Mk8mlyb (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

This does not tell the whole story. After Joe's move, you started a discussion in March 2025 that resulted in a unanimous-except-you support for JoeBro's move, making it the new consensus. Unhappy with that result, you started an RFC to get a wider range of participants/viewpoints. Sergecross73 msg me 17:09, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Whatever the case, the new consensus ignores reliable sources that clearly state Donkey Kong is a Mario game and relies on an argument based on personal interpretation. Mk8mlyb (talk) 17:27, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

You're free to have that stance, but it really has nothing to do with the question being asked here. They didn't ask for your stance, they asked for clarification on the disputed point. I'm again reminding you that bogging down discussion channels with making the same arguments over and over again has not been a winning formula for you. Sergecross73 msg me 17:39, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

OK, fine. For clarification, the debate is over what to state as the first game of the Mario series based on what reliable sources say. Mk8mlyb (talk) 18:11, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

The source Jotform states that Mario became Mario with the release of Donkey Kong Jr. That would make Donkey Kong Jr a Mario game and this is backed up by multiple sources. Mk8mlyb (talk) 18:26, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

This source also classifies Donkey Kong as part of the Super Mario series (This article presents the characteristic spatial structures and cartographic techniques found in early Super Mario games, from the arcade classic Donkey Kong (1981)...) Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:41, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

This source directly ties Donkey Kong to the Mario brand (First appearing in Donkey Kong in 1981, the Mario brand has gone on to sell more than 200 million units worldwide...) Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:49, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

This source calls Mario Bros a sequel to Donkey Kong (...an expanded version of their “Mario Bros.” arcade game, which itself was an indirect sequel to “Donkey Kong”...) Mk8mlyb (talk) 21:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

This source classifies Donkey Kong as a Mario game because Mario appears in it (Mario titles by genre...Platform Series...This category includes any of the main Mario games...Donkey Kong, 1981, Nintendo, Arcade (pg 9) [...] Mario titles by console...This is a list of video games in the Mario series...Arcade...Donkey Kong (1981) (pg 17)) Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

This source calls Mario Bros a follow-up to Donkey Kong (Mario Bros...is a follow-up to Donkey Kong and stars Mario...). This confirms a point I had raised earlier about Mario Bros being a follow-up to Donkey Kong. Mk8mlyb (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

This source states Donkey Kong started the Mario series and calls Donkey Kong Jr a Mario game (...Donkey Kong (which would spawn the world-famous Mario series...) (pg 5) [...] Donkey Kong Jr is the only game in the Mario series that could be considered a true sequel in terms of storyline...(pg 58)) Mk8mlyb (talk) 23:25, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

This source states the Super Mario series was launched in 1981 with the release of Donkey Kong (Super Mario was launched in 1981 and its main character Mario was a plumber from the Mushroom Kingdom, and since then he has become an important character in the world of video games. It all started as a pixel hero wandering in the treacherous landscapes of Donkey Kong...) (If you're looking for the words themselves, you'll need to open up the PDF attached in the link.) Mk8mlyb (talk) 22:23, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

This source states the Mario series originated with Donkey Kong (...the Mario game series--produced/designed by Shigeru Miyamoto and originating with the arcade game Donkey Kong (1981)--has many superficial characteristics of role-playing games...) Mk8mlyb (talk) 22:29, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

This source states Donkey Kong is the first game in the Super Mario franchise (This meant that Donkey Kong, the first in the [Super Mario] franchise, was the earliest game in which players could not only relate...) Mk8mlyb (talk) 04:15, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

This source treats Donkey Kong as a previous game to Super Mario Odyssey in the Mario franchise (As in previous games—Donkey Kong (1981), Super Mario Bros.(1985), and Super Mario 64 (1996)—he must rescue Princess Peach...) Mk8mlyb (talk) 03:45, 3 June 2025 (UTC)